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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Dft have a Consulation open which they are hoping will slide by unnoticed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety

The important section is number 4 where they intend to make all vehicles using BIVA meet modern emmisions spec ie cats and injection required to stand a chance.

The EU hasn't asked for it, the test isn't accepted in any EU country anyway so this is purely a home market initiative.

Now the real sneaky bit, the consulation opened 3 days ago and will close inleass than 4 weeks . The rules will come into effect in JULY 2018 !!

So if just starting / almost finishing a car for BIVA build they have added £3000- £6000 to the cost of complying. :wanker:

Not going to effect you ? Then what about others like anyone caught with a non 8 point car sent for BIVA might as well crush it and be done , especially at the lower end of the market where costs vs benefit simply don't stack up.

I'm currently liaising with NSRA and VERY shortly we'll producing a reply for others to be able to use.

Ideally we want this stopped , however buying time for a FULL consultation would be better . For that we'll need MPs/ plus Minister for Transport and DfT to realise the depth of feeling and far reaching effects.

Don't care ?? The please don't bother commenting as we don't have time to do the same old arguements about USING BIVA. This will effectively stop the only legal way of building.
 

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Fucks sake! They just can't leave it alone can they. Should we wait until you have a good reply for us to use Kev, or fire right in now? Thinking I should wait so that a well balanced reply can be made?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
By the end of the week we'll have a list of what we need to achieve and the relevenat points that they haven't taken into consideration. Plus an idea of what to write to your MP .We NEED a shit storm !!
 

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The relevant part:

Kit cars
4.10
Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to
meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the
latest EU standards
. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards,
on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.
4.11
We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards
current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older
engine.
In other words the current relaxation
for emissions according to the age
of the engine will no longer apply.
4.12
Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet
the latest MOT standards, as long as the appearance of the vehicle is broadly
unchanged and the engine is of the same capacity as that supplied with the
vehicle when it was new.
4.13
When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters
around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard)
, kit car makers typically used older engines which were not fitted
with catalytic converters, hence the justification for age-appropriate testing of emissions
based on date of engine manufacture or first use. The majority of the fleet is now
vehicles up to 25 years old whose engines are fitted with catalytic converters
, providing plenty of choice to the kit car builder
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ths shows how poorly researched this is , Reconstructed Classics don't even have to USE the BIVA system ! Kit Car is something totally different to Kit Altered and/or Radically altered . Are they lumping them all together or poor terminology / research?
 

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The question in the consultation is worded incorrectly:

10
Are you content with our proposal to require kit cars to meet the latest MOT
standards, removing the current rule where vehicles are tested to MOT standards
according to the age of their engine?


The proposal is for the emmission test to be on date of registration, not LATEST standards. That would be testing to a 2018 spec.

Also this would be retrospective legislation, you could MOT before the change OK but not after!
 

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They are definitely determined to put the kibosh on a hobby. Its unlikey a handful of homebuilt cars will tip the environmental balance as far as emissions go.. This has less to do with cars and more to do with control . They simply need to get people to comply to a set standard, we should all drive the same car, where the same clothes, eat the same food, watch the same brain numbing TV and read the same newspapers filled with garbage news..
 

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FFS!
You just get yourself lined up and ready to shoot and they move the targets, again.

Chaley
And that will be one of the arguements to put forward Chaley - it's not practical as most cars take 3-7 years to build and the engine is one of the first components to fit. So your compliant engine at the beginning of the build would be non compliant at the end - even govt people can understand that logic (they may ignore it though).
 

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And a lot of folks will go for an older and less complex engine because the complexities of an ECU and all its associated sensors are beyond many people.
 

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I posted this on the 289Register forum:
Suggested response:

Re: Road Vehicles, Improving air quality and safety Consultation.
Section 4.11 & 4.12

In response to Question 10.
Implementation of this regulation would have an immeasurably small beneficial impact on air quality or pollution due to the comparatively low number of vehicles being presented for IVA test, and their subsequent use on the road, but would have a significant impact on a large number of small businesses and individual vehicle builders who would not be able to create satisfactorily accurate replicas or restore historic vehicles.
The entire "Kit Car" and Classic Car restoration industries are worth many millions of pounds to the UK economy, but could suffer massive downturns in revenue and employment as a result of this amendment, which would have no quantifiable improvement to air quality at all.
I/we petition you to cancel the proposed amendments 4.11 & 4.12 in their entirety.
 

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25 million cars averaging 11,000 miles per annum (only cars, not vans, lorries, buses, motorbikes) on the road, how many are kit, component or altered classics? 10- 20,000? Averaging maybe a quarter of that mileage per annum? These remain unaffected by the proposed amendment. And how many per year will be added to that total? A few hundred AT MOST?
Net reduction in polluting vehicles going on the road, per annum, 0.001%!
:evil:
 

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Last survey (2016) stats for classic/historic (kit/modified?) were;

£662 million income from overseas enthusiasts
34,900 jobs in the historic (only - even more if adding in customising/hot rodding etc) car industry.
6 out of 10 businesses that are worried the new regs will cause problems for the in future trading.
1,039,950 (Registered) historic vehicles in GB
16 million people think it important to use historic vehicles
8.2 million are interested in historic vehicles
£2.05 Billion spent annually on associated items
£1.4 Billion spent annually on historic vehicles
£414 million spent annually on associated items
£262 million spent annually by traders
£5.5 Billion spent annually in total by historic owners
31,100 full or part time workers in historic industry

Now that is the 'Historic' car industry - this would be bigger if it included the Kit car & Rodding industry.

Some pretty big numbers there which the govt would be wise to not mess with in these uncertain times.
 

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I see nothing about MSVA.
I guess they don’t care about the even smaller group that build bikes,trikes and quads? But also spend vast amounts of money on stuff.


Chaley
 

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Kev, Jesse Norman MP (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for the Department for Transport) is my local MP.

I'm very happy to go and see him for a chat when I have all the relevant information to discuss with him.

I want to look him in the eye when he tries to justify the destruction of an industry...
 

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Kev, Jesse Norman MP (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for the Department for Transport) is my local MP.

I'm very happy to go and see him for a chat when I have all the relevant information to discuss with him.

I want to look him in the eye when he tries to justify the destruction of an industry...
I really cannot understand why so much time (and cost) is put into this on a continual change that affects so few.
 

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I really cannot understand why so much time (and cost) is put into this on a continual change that affects so few.
First they came for the *insert minority* and I did nothing, then they came for *insert larger minority* and I still did nothing, then they came for *insert even larger minority* and still I did nothing, then they came for me and no one else did anything.

Chaley
 
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